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> Scientific Linux 6.1 Beta 1 Release discussion
scottro
 Posted: Jul 7 2011, 11:30 PM
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By RH method, I was speaking very generally. Yum instead of apt, rpm instead of dpkg, a few different things--for example, one configures RH with a static IP in one way and Debian in another.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be cryptic, it was a very generalized statement.
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wearetheborg
 Posted: Jul 8 2011, 12:17 PM
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QUOTE (joutlan @ Jul 7 2011, 02:37 PM)

  But it's definitely more stable than Debian testing  laugh.gif  laugh.gif

Are you sure? wink.gif

QUOTE (joutlan @ Jul 7 2011, 02:37 PM)

I might add that SL is supported much longer than Debian....which, if I remember correctly, promises support for one year after the last stable release....no?

Yup, at least one year after the next stable release. Since Debian releases are usally seperated by at least 2 years, this means at least a 3 year support cycle (usually longer).

3 years is good enough for home use; enterprise users would want more.

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tux99
 Posted: Jul 8 2011, 01:00 PM
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QUOTE (wearetheborg @ Jul 8 2011, 01:17 PM)
3 years is good enough for home use; enterprise users would want more.

speak for yourself! smile.gif

As I mentioned in some other post, my current desktop system is Mandriva 2008.1 (from spring 2008, but heavily updated with my own packages) and I'm only planning to upgrade it to SL6 this coming winter when my personal additions repo for SL6 will hopefully contain all the packages I need in addition to the base SL6.

My previous main desktop install (Mandrake 9.2) lasted from spring 2004 to spring 2008.

So 3 years is not good enough for me, 4 years would be just about ok, 5 years better to give me some leeway.

Therefore SL6 with it's 7 years is ideal for me, since that means I'm not pressured to upgrade.

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wearetheborg
 Posted: Jul 8 2011, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE (tux99 @ Jul 8 2011, 08:00 AM)
QUOTE (wearetheborg @ Jul 8 2011, 01:17 PM)
3 years is good enough for home use; enterprise users would want more.

speak for yourself! smile.gif

As I mentioned in some other post, my current desktop system is Mandriva 2008.1 (from spring 2008, but heavily updated with my own packages) and I'm only planning to upgrade it to SL6 this coming winter when my personal additions repo for SL6 will hopefully contain all the packages I need in addition to the base SL6.

My previous main desktop install (Mandrake 9.2) lasted from spring 2004 to spring 2008.

So 3 years is not good enough for me, 4 years would be just about ok, 5 years better to give me some leeway.

Therefore SL6 with it's 7 years is ideal for me, since that means I'm not pressured to upgrade.


Thatz cuz you are changing distros, and SL6 is not trivial to configure.

Debian on the other hand...all you need to do is obtain the list of packages your manually installed via aptitude. And then install them again in the upgrade by "aptitude xyz hehd jejd wjsd ....". Aptitude finds all dependencies.
What I usually do is copy over my /home directory, reinstall quickly, then install my personal packages as above. Easy. No hassle about repo worries. And copy back the /home. Takes half a day, including downloading. I think half a day effort in 3 years is fine. After that, no worries for 3 years http://th166.photobucket.com/albums/u117/rdshear/Smiley%20Faces/th_smiley-face-thumbs-up.gif

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tux99
 Posted: Jul 8 2011, 01:31 PM
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QUOTE (wearetheborg @ Jul 8 2011, 02:13 PM)


Thatz cuz you are changing distros, and SL6 is not trivial to configure.


I doesn't have anything to do with the change of distros. Mandrake and Mandriva are the same distro (it changed name) and I know SL6 very well since I have been working professionally (sysadmin) on RHEL for many years already.

QUOTE (wearetheborg @ Jul 8 2011, 02:13 PM)
Debian on the other hand...all you need to do is obtain the list of packages your manually installed via aptitude. And then install them again in the upgrade by "aptitude  xyz hehd jejd wjsd ....". Aptitude finds all dependencies.


I have tried Debian (and also Ubuntu) a few times and there were many reasons why I didn't like them.

The fact that I'm building my own packages for SL6 is my own choice (because I find it fun and enjoyable!), I could just use the existing packages from the several repos that exist for SL6 and be done with it as quickly as with Debian.

QUOTE
After that, no worries for 3 years

Which as I already said is not enough for me, I need it for at least 4 years.

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My personal SL6 repository, specialized in audio/video software: http://pkgrepo.linuxtech.net/el6/
(can be used together with EPEL and ELRepo repositories) - repository mirror: http://linuxsoft.cern.ch/linuxtech/el6/
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U308
 Posted: Jul 8 2011, 06:16 PM
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As a common or garden home desktop user running triple boot (Ubuntus and now SL6), I for some reason have got really attached to yum and actually now prefer using it to apt.
With repo priorities set I don't even need to disable those I frequently use.
OK, there was a fair amount of software that I wanted and couldn't find in the repos - but I have managed to find all the stuff that I have in Ubuntu and most of it is the latest (thanks tux99 for Handbrake). Some packages like VLC are newer than equivalent Ubuntu 10.04/10.

These are some of my favourite commands ...
yum provides/yum whatprovides
This command searches for which packages provide the requested dependency of file. This also takes wildcards for files.
Eg. yum provides MTA

yum search something
Eg. yum search curl
To locate all packages that containthe string 'curl'

rpm -i --test handbrake-gui-0.9.5-1.el6.x86_64.rpm (Ran it before installing tux99 Handbrake)
(Will not actually install and will also catch dependency problems)

The main reason for trying and now keeping SL6 is due to the 6 monthly Ubuntu release cycle. LTS is OK but even that could be longer as far as I am concerned.

Choice of distro of course depends on the intended usage. If used only for browsing, facebook, email then one does not really need rhel unless ...
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wearetheborg
 Posted: Jul 8 2011, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE (U308 @ Jul 8 2011, 01:16 PM)
Some packages like VLC are newer than equivalent Ubuntu 10.04/10.


Ubuntu is now on 11.04 biggrin.gif
11.10 coming in three months

So, for the packages you were not able to find in SL, you boot into Ubuntu and run the programs there? What packages could you not find in SL?

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joutlan
 Posted: Jul 9 2011, 05:13 AM
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Debian Etch to Lenny was less than 2 years....Lenny to Squeeze was even less than Etch to Lenny.

Getting more than two years of security updates for Debian stable is a fantasy I think. Where's this 3 year figure come from? They only "promise" 1 year from stable release. Even if its stable to stable your looking at averaging about a year and 9 months or so. This compared to 7 years? No comparison at all really.

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U308
 Posted: Jul 9 2011, 09:08 AM
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QUOTE (wearetheborg @ Jul 8 2011, 08:57 PM)
QUOTE (U308 @ Jul 8 2011, 01:16 PM)
Some packages like VLC are newer than equivalent Ubuntu 10.04/10.


Ubuntu is now on 11.04 biggrin.gif
11.10 coming in three months

So, for the packages you were not able to find in SL, you boot into Ubuntu and run the programs there? What packages could you not find in SL?


These are the ones not in SL.. (some are from CERN fedora repo).

assogiate
abiword (puias repo)
avant window navigator
bleachbit
byzanz
ccrypt
checkinstall
devede
openshot
handbrake
google earth
gtk-recordmydesktop
iso master
onboard
Opera
pdfchain
pdf shuffler
screenlets
java jre (oracle)
tunapie
winff

Plus a few others like bitdfender.

Edit :- They are all installed and running smoothly in SL6 - no reason to boot into Ubuntu.
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tux99
 Posted: Jul 9 2011, 02:53 PM
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QUOTE (U308 @ Jul 9 2011, 10:08 AM)

openshot


How is openshot?

I read about it recently and thought of packaging it up to try it, but haven't gotten round to it yet.

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U308
 Posted: Jul 9 2011, 03:40 PM
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QUOTE (tux99 @ Jul 9 2011, 04:53 PM)
QUOTE (U308 @ Jul 9 2011, 10:08 AM)

openshot


How is openshot?

I read about it recently and thought of packaging it up to try it, but haven't gotten round to it yet.

It's great, better than kdenlive and certainly better than pitivi. Very stable on my system - no crashes.
Please see this thread. http://scientificlinuxforum.org/index.php?showtopic=100&hl=openshot
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spoovy
 Posted: Jul 9 2011, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE (wearetheborg @ Jul 8 2011, 01:13 PM)

Thatz cuz you are changing distros, and SL6 is not trivial to configure.

Debian on the other hand...all you need to do is obtain the list of packages your manually installed via aptitude. And then install them again in the upgrade by "aptitude  xyz hehd jejd wjsd ....". Aptitude finds all dependencies.
What I usually do is copy over my /home directory, reinstall quickly, then install my personal packages as above. Easy. No hassle about repo worries. And copy back the /home.  Takes half a day, including downloading.  I think half a day effort in 3 years is fine. After that, no worries for 3 years  http://th166.photobucket.com/albums/u117/rdshear/Smiley%20Faces/th_smiley-face-thumbs-up.gif


In all honesty 'borg from what you've written here I don't think you have much to gain from switching to SL. I think Debian is as close to a perfect distro as there is for the regular home user, and unless you have a specific need for something not available in Debian but available in SL (longer support, better SELinux integration, yum plugin or something) or specific reason to use a clone (require knowledge of RHEL for certs etc) then there is no point changing. All distros are basically the same anyway as they are made up of the same packages, so the old adage applies; if it aint broke, don't fix it.

But then there is always the old linux adage - If it aint broke, fix it till it is.. tongue.gif

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U308
 Posted: Jul 9 2011, 04:07 PM
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'borg could try Linux Mint Debian Edition (based on testing) - it's a rolling release.

http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1604

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wearetheborg
 Posted: Jul 9 2011, 05:14 PM
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QUOTE (joutlan @ Jul 9 2011, 12:13 AM)
Debian Etch to Lenny was less than 2 years....Lenny to Squeeze was even less than Etch to Lenny.

Getting more than two years of security updates for Debian stable is a fantasy I think.  Where's this 3 year figure come from?  They only "promise" 1 year from stable release.  Even if its stable to stable your looking at averaging about a year and 9 months or so.  This  compared to 7 years?  No comparison at all really.



Its one year from next stable release. Lenny was Feb 09. Squeeze was Feb 11. Thus, Lenny will be supported at least till Feb 12. = 3 year support.

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wearetheborg
 Posted: Jul 9 2011, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (spoovy @ Jul 9 2011, 10:59 AM)


In all honesty 'borg from what you've written here I don't think you have much to gain from switching to SL.  I think Debian is as close to a perfect distro as there is for the regular home user, and unless you have a specific need for something not available in Debian but available in SL (longer support, better SELinux integration, yum plugin or something) or specific reason to use a clone (require knowledge of RHEL for certs etc) then there is no point changing. 



Yup, you nailed it. My reasons:
--want to (re)learn abouts RH and RHEL.
--want to learn about the better (I presume) security tools in SL (as it is based on RHEL).

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joutlan
 Posted: Jul 9 2011, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE (wearetheborg @ Jul 9 2011, 01:14 PM)
QUOTE (joutlan @ Jul 9 2011, 12:13 AM)
Debian Etch to Lenny was less than 2 years....Lenny to Squeeze was even less than Etch to Lenny.

Getting more than two years of security updates for Debian stable is a fantasy I think.  Where's this 3 year figure come from?  They only "promise" 1 year from stable release.  Even if its stable to stable your looking at averaging about a year and 9 months or so.  This  compared to 7 years?  No comparison at all really.



Its one year from next stable release. Lenny was Feb 09. Squeeze was Feb 11. Thus, Lenny will be supported at least till Feb 12. = 3 year support.


Ok then....then 2 years 9 months LOL. I read once a new stable was released, the old stable was archived and security updates ceased. Whatever. That said:

If the clones disappear, incl PUAIS, Debian is my fallback position. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2835777/egyptian.gif

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spoovy
 Posted: Jul 10 2011, 06:23 PM
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I am mainly using SL because I want to build familiarity with rpm and RHEL6, otherwise I would probably be using Debian to be honest.

That said, I like SL more the more I use it, and I am appreciating the genuinely rock-solid stability. I remember Debian throwing the odd wobbly (a regular update broke nm-applet once (pre nm-cli) leaving me unable to connect to wireless networks at a really bad time). These kind of things just don't seem to happen at all with SL.

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wearetheborg
 Posted: Jul 10 2011, 06:35 PM
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Here is a question: Why cant RHEL/SL be more like Debian in terms of repo compatibility?

I mean, RHEL prolly doesnt have many software packages because of licensing issues; but Debian has a similar problem wrt to "free" and non-free. But, their non-free repo is compatible with the free repo.
Similarly, why cant RH split Fedora repos, one which will be turned into RHEL, and one which will be compatible with RHEL, but without any liability for RH. That is, RH says "ok, if you want so and so codec, you can choose to use the Fedora such and such repo, we've tried to make everything compatible, but we are not responsible for what happens".

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spoovy
 Posted: Jul 10 2011, 07:25 PM
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Fedora relies on third-party repos for patent-encumbered stuff as well, it's just that for whatever historical/political reasons the third-party repos widely used by Fedora users are a bit better organised than SL's; probably because they have been used more widely for longer. Fedora does still have conflicting repos available though if you want to use them.

And remember what third party means - not under the control of the distro producer. If me and a few friends decided to host a shabbily-maintained repo that clashed with Debian's multimedia repository, then that would hardly be the fault of Debian would it? And it wouldn't be a problem to you as nobody would be forcing you to use it.

I think people are making too big a deal of this third-party repo thing. It really isn't a problem at all - just don't enable repos that clash and you won't have a problem. Pick the one that best suits and leave it at that. If you still have need of specific packages then add them individually. If you can't handle installing /building individual packages then read up on yum priorities or one of the other methods for using conflicting repos - again, they are not difficult to learn.

I think you've been spoiled by Debian and it's capacious repos!

This post has been edited by spoovy: Jul 10 2011, 07:28 PM

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wearetheborg
 Posted: Jul 10 2011, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (spoovy @ Jul 10 2011, 02:25 PM)
.
I think you've been spoiled by Debian and it's capacious repos!


Yes...Yes I have been.
So why doesnt RH have Fedora like capacious repos, as you put it?

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spoovy
 Posted: Jul 10 2011, 08:42 PM
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Why would they? Different distros have different goals. One of the goals of Debian is to have huge repos, and the contributors put huge time and effort into achieving that goal, at the expense of other potential goals. RHEL has very different goals; Fedora's are different again.

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wearetheborg
 Posted: Jul 10 2011, 09:33 PM
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QUOTE (spoovy @ Jul 10 2011, 03:42 PM)
Why would they?  Different distros have different goals.  One of the goals of Debian is to have huge repos, and the contributors put huge time and effort into achieving that goal, at the expense of other potential goals.  RHEL has very different goals; Fedora's are different again.


By RHEL having different goals, you mean their goal is $$$$€€€€€€£££££?

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spoovy
 Posted: Jul 10 2011, 10:28 PM
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Well I was thinking more of technical goals really, but Red Hat is a business so RHEL is designed to make money yes.

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wearetheborg
 Posted: Jul 10 2011, 10:39 PM
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QUOTE (spoovy @ Jul 10 2011, 05:28 PM)
Well I was thinking more of technical goals really, but Red Hat is a business so RHEL is designed to make money yes.


What technical goals would they be?

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spoovy
 Posted: Jul 10 2011, 10:51 PM
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